Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy

PART I: True or False questions
1. The DCCC formulated a target list of vulnerable Republican seats early in 2006.
Here are eight of the top twenty target seats of the DCCC.  The Democrats won all of these seats.  True or False?

NM 1  Wilson (Madrid)
PA 6  Gerlach (Lois Murphy)
IL 6   Hyde/Roskam (Tammy Duckworth)
CT 4 Shays (Farrell)
CA 50 Cunningtham/Bilbray (Busby)
Ohio 1 Chabot (Cranley)
CO 4  Musgrave (Paccioni)
MN 6 Kennedy/Bachman (Wetterling)

2. By summer, these three additional DCCC target seats shot up the list.  They all won too.  True or False?

OH 15 Pryce (Kilroy)
FL 13 Harris/Buchanon (Jennings)
NY 26 Reynolds (Davis)

3.  Altogther, the eleven seats mentioned above were in the top 25 in terms of DCCC and 527 support.  True or False?

4. Here are two Democratic candidates who were actually targeted for defeat by the DCCC in Democratic primaries.  True or False?

NH 1 Shea-Porter
CA 11 McNerney

5.  The districts listed below were on top 50 target lists, but didn't get as much help as the DCCC spent in order to defeat Democrats Shea-Porter and McNerney in Democratic primaries.  True or False?

NY 19 Kelly (Hall)
CT 5 Johnson (Murphy)
MN 01 Gutnecht  (Walz)

6.  In addition, here's a list of "red state" areas, supported by the DNC, but explicitly ignored by the DCCC strategy, where modest infusions of support could have led to added seats.  The Democrats could have won at least two seats in these areas using the money that the DCCC spent trying to defeat Iraq War opponents in Democratic primaries.  True or False?

Wyoming
Nevada
Idaho
Nebraska
(And the reddest part of California in the Doolittle race)

7. Of the approximately 30 new Democrats elected to take Republican seats, two-thirds were not on the DCCC top 30 list.  True or False.

8.  Democrats made dramatic pick-ups of gubernatorial seats and state legislative seats that will effect future Congressional re-districting and will likely provide Congressional candidates for future races.  True or False?

PART II: Multiple choice

9. The DCCC campaign was most successful "targeting" districts where the Republicans were already debilitated by scandal.  Name a seat that fits that description.

a. TX 22  DeLay
b. FL 16 Foley
c. OH 18  Ney
d. PA 7 Weldon
e. AZ 8 Kolbe et al.
f. PA 10 Sherwood
g. NC 11 Taylor
h. NY 20 Sweeney
i. All of the above

10. Circle all the states where the Democrats did not have either incumbent Congressmen or Senators, or did not make a close run in 2006.

a.    Alaska

11.  From early on, the DCCC's top target race in Pennsylvania was:

a. PA 4  Hart (Altmire)
b. PA 6  Gerlach (Murphy)
c. PA 7 Weldon (Sestak)
d. PA 8 Fitzpatrick (Murphy)
e. PA 10  Sherwood (Carney)

12.  Which race in Pennsylvania did the Democrats lose:

a. PA 4  Hart (Altmire)
b. PA 6  Gerlach (Murphy)
c. PA 7 Weldon (Sestak)
d. PA 8 Fitzpatrick (Murphy)
e. PA 10  Sherwood (Carney)

13. Which states did Rahm Emmanuel specifically ask to have disqualified from receiving DNC support?

a. Illinois
b. None so far


III. Essay question:

Throughout 2006, DNC Chair Howard Dean was criticized - by Democratic consultants, prospective Speaker Pelosi, DCCC campaign chairman Emmanuel, the Washington Post reporters and columnists - for spending resources in areas not on the DCCC target list.  In particular, he was criticized for promoting activities in all 50 states.  NY Times reporter Adam Nagourney summed up a Washington view of Dean's activity in 2006: "Almost without exception, Democrats have praised Mr. Emanuel and Mr. Schumer -- though Howard Dean, the party's national chairman, may have to defend his decision to spread Democratic National Committee money to build up parties in all 50 states, while parrying requests for support in the Congressional races."

Conservative columnist Robert Novak was even more blunt:

"Last, but not least, comes the brilliant candidate recruiting and fundraising on the part of two men - Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) Chairman Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.) and Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee (DSCC) Chairman Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.). And should it occur, Democratic victory will come in spite of the total incompetence of Democratic National Committee (DNC) Chairman Howard Dean."

Questions:

Which states should not have received DNC support in 2006?  Explain.

Why did the list of winning Democrat candidates vary from the original priority list?  Explain.

Which states should not have received DNC support in 2006?  Explain.  

How many states should have been included in the 50 state strategy?  Explain.



Display:


Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (none / 0)

Okay.  I get it: Dean's 50 state strategy worked.

The answers show that DCCC and Emmanuel - with hurricane at their backs - had a 60% hit rate track record on the high priority races.  Your question #1 lists a bunch of races where Emmanuel spent about $15m and lost them all.  But nobody wants to hear about that.  We finally won!

You're other exam point is better.

A lot of the surprising CD wins came in places that Dean and the DNC were criticized for bothering with.  But campaigning in Montana looks like a pretty good idea now.  They're still counting in Wyoming.  Came close in Idaho.  And forced the Republicans to play defense in Nebraska.

So how does Emmanuel answer the question.   Did he want to write off Wyoming and Montana?

Will Dean get any credit?  Can Emmanuel et al. make peace by acknowledging that the 50 state strategy is already working?


by StewD on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 05:57:43 PM EST

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (3.00 / 4)

Kentucky is a good case study.  The race that was targeted we lost.  The race the DCCC ignorred (Yarmuth) we won.  When locals go head-to-head we have a shot but when the national organizations compete, the Republicans tend to do quite well, even in a "wave" year.  Why???


by JoeRoss on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 08:30:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (none / 0)

" The race that was targeted we lost.  The race the DCCC ignorred (Yarmuth) we won."

I think we gotta face up to the possibility that maybe it's a good thing that the DCCC ignored the longshot races we won?


by Jerome Armstrong on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 09:14:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (3.00 / 1)

When the wingnuts ridicule Markos for having a supposed 0-20 won-lost record (a talking point never to be heard again), we roll our eyes at them.  Yet somehow this week everyone wants to focus on won-lost records.

This diary is obviously written in a dishonest fashion.  It starts out by highlighting 8 races the DCCC lost, never touching upon the unstated implication that the DCCC apparently won 12 of their top 20 targets.  I guess that wouldn't make it as easy to bash them.  I also see fingers pointing at a number of races that went right down to the wire despite the presence of either a strong incumbent or an unfavorable partisan balance.  Again, no analysis of that; the sole point is to prove the DCCC sucks because they lost some races.

Jerome, you've made your bones by encouraging serious and substantive discussion of the mechanics of politics.  Could we maybe try to steer the discussion a little more towards analysis of what worked and what didn't, and a little away from the question of who rocks and who sucks?  I'd like to win in 2008 because we learned the right lessons and honed our strategy, not because we purged the members of the winning team who we decided didn't contribute quite enough.

I'm really tired of these diaries that try to prove we took over Congress for the first time in 12 years even though the incompetent DCCC was wrong at every turn.  This is not a productive road to go down.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 03:01:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You Flunked the Final Exam (3.00 / 1)

The point of the diary is NOT to bash
Rahm Emmanuel and then forget everything.

Rahm will NOT head the DCCC in the next
election. These positions are rotated.
And Rahm has already indicated that he
will seek another party post.

The point is to LEARN from our mistakes
and to find a better strategy.

Choosing to fight in a handful of announced
districts seems to be a losing strategy, in
much the same way that choosing to compete
in only a dozen or so "battleground states"
has not won us the Presidency or the Congress.

Instead of giving notice to the RCCC by
announcing that the Democrats will only
concentrate on just these selected races,
a better strategy would seem to be to
send notice that we will compete to some
degree in every district in every state.

If the DCCC cherry-picked the 20 races
most likely to go blue, but they won only
60% of them, they did NOT outperform.
Remember that this site, and Cook and
some other prognosticators, had lists of
50 or more close races at the end, and
we won +/- 30 seats, or about 60% of those,
including many who got little or no help
from the DCCC.

We are trying to find a way to do better,
not to bash and blame.


by Woody on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 10:38:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (3.00 / 3)

I think the DCCC is doing its job when it targets specific races, and the DNC is doing it's job building up the national party.  Sure the DCCC should be looking at the long term, but as a general matter, their operations occur on a two-year cycle.  They can and should focus on the narrow, and let the DNC focus on the broad.  I think that division of labor is the right way to work things, and it worked.  


by neotokyotimes on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 09:25:39 PM EST

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (none / 0)

I take your point that it worked out pretty well this year, we took over a lot of seats.  However, the poster is making the point that we could have done EVEN BETTER.


by dl1982 on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 12:19:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (none / 0)

That makes sense.  But hasn't Dean been a target of ridicule for doing his job?  The irony is that it appears that the DNC did an effective short-term job too.  

It would be helpful to understand why the DCCC priority list didn't work out as well as some of the lower tier candidates.


by StewD on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 10:06:52 PM EST

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (3.00 / 1)

Maybe because the DCCC consultants stayed out of the lower tier races and the candidates in the lower tier hired people who actually know what they're doing.


by Flatiron Dante on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 12:37:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (3.00 / 1)

The DLC and the DCCC still have insider-itis and just don't get it. Here is another thought:  Vilsack hasn't a snowballs chance in hell of getting anywhere in his "bid" for the 2008 nomination.  Not even here in Iowa is he THAT popular.  But he thinks he can be a spoiler of the Iowa Cacuses because he is a "favorite son." That is, if a favorite son is running then the results of the Iowa Caucuses will be meaningless.  Vilsack must be in someone's back pocket already just as he was in 2004 (Kerry).  Since Edwards and Obama are popular here in Iowa, who would taking the Iowa Caucuses out of the equation help?  Answer may be among the membership of the DLC.  (Vilsack is chair.)  Think about it.


by CarolynLFS on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 10:34:24 PM EST

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (none / 0)

Leaving aside the obvious point that a broad offense worked, we should ask why we didn't do as well w/the top targets as the overall results suggest we should have.  Seems like it has to be either:
a)  The targeting was wrong to begin with.
b)  The DCCC ads were ineffective (bordering on harmful).
c)  DCCC field was ineffective (bordering on harmful).
d)  The RNCC was working off the same early target list, and their field and ads work a lot better than ours when they have enough lead time.

If it's (d), which I suspect, we have work to do.  We need to be able to win an evenly-matched head-on fight, not just when they get caught off guard.  I doubt it's (a) or (c).  Could easily be (b).


by red clay dem on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 12:00:52 AM EST

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (3.00 / 1)

hmmm, if (d) is indeed the answer, then perhaps Rahm really is a supergenius -- he faked the GOPers out by making them focus all the attention on those races, while leaving the netroots & grassroots free to speak out in the less sexy races in Kentucky, New Hampshire, and Iowa.

In which case all I have to say is: Thank you Rahm!  I guess I would rather have you on my side after all.

(And thank you to the GOP for falling into the nefarious trap!!!)


by jakester on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 12:52:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

DNC v. DCCC Talent (none / 0)

Maybe c is the right answer.  After all, the DCCC hired the guy Matt Stoller called the "Bob Shrum of field operations" to "save" the election from Howard Dean while Howard hired the team that literally cracked the human genome to build a state-of-the-art voter database.  It seems that the DCCC had something of a reverse-Midas touch, at least compared to the netroots and the 50 state strategy.


by Flatiron Dante on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 01:02:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (none / 0)

how about E they have no idea what they are doing and simply got lucky because the Republicans kept screwing up and hung themselves


by orin76 on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 01:08:06 AM EST

Joe Conason has more (none / 0)

On how this year's results vindicate Howard's strategy.


by Flatiron Dante on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 02:53:39 AM EST

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (none / 0)

Well... the problem with this assessment is that many of the Republican incumbents targeted by the DCCC were expecting a stiff challenge in 2006.  They did what they had to do to survive well before November.

On the other hand, incumbents who never expected a serious challenge were not prepared.  Incumbents like Ryun, Gutknecht, Bradley, Pombo, et al, had to scramble at the last minute to try to save their seats and it didn't work.  Many of the incumbents who lost were essentially going through the motions up through September or October, unlike Gerlach, etc., who were running hard from November 2004.


by Tom on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:53:00 AM EST

Right, situational analysis (none / 0)

Traditionally in low supply.

I don't want to go down the list one by one but a couple of things stood out in the top eight. Patricia Madrid apparently blew the debate and that cost her the seat. Is that the DCCC's fault? The local New Mexico papers had articles indicating many independents and soft Republicans were planning to vote for Madrid until she botched a question on taxes in the debate, and that was pounced on in subsequent commercials. A poll was conducted that indicated the same thing.

The other one I noticed was CA-50. That may have been a wet dream in the special election due to Cunningham's problems, but no one with a fleck of mathematical knowledge paid any attention heading toward November. Even if Busby had prevailed in the special election Bilbray would have thumped her in the rematch. A simple matter of vastly higher number of voters showing up in November in a heavy red district. Busby wouldn't have gained much traction via a few months of incumbency and the stain of Cunningham would have worn off. I was appreciative there wasn't false hope on progressive blogs heading to November in Ca-50, but now it shows up here, supposedly as an example of DCCC failure.

The race that irks me was avoided by the DCCC and the netroots until very late, Tessa Hafen in NV-3. That race absolutely could have been won with early emphasis and cash. Overall the party and the netroots handicapped Nevada very poorly. There was desperation toward Nevada as the elusive 6th senate seat when it was never in play, and Jill Derby and not Hafen or Titus was featured on a front page post on Kos.

Don't get me wrong, Derby ran a great race and was a more interesting story than Titus or Hafen, but consider the dynamic. Even if you win NV-2, an extreme longshot, it's immediately on every GOP hit list for '08 and beyond. In a presidential year very unlikely you can hold that seat considering the +48,000 Republican registration advantage. Meanwhile, Hafen was in a 50/50 district that tilts only slightly right due to to somewhat conservative independents. This year in a wave situation we had a big chance to steal it from Jon Porter and hold the seat for a decade or more, since the only question on Hafen at age 30 was experience. Hafen lacked early cash and Porter disgracefully and falsely defined her as a carpetbagger, before the late money showed up.  

Similarly, Titus was hammered on taxes immediately post primary when she lacked funding to counter.


by Gary Kilbride on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 12:32:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (3.00 / 1)

The Gerlach-Murphy campaign may be a great case study.  The DCCC exercised strong central control.  The campaign manager was the field manager for Kerry in Ohio in the 2004 mess.  The direct mail was done by the ultimate old school firm.  

The other races fit with the Matt Bai/NY Times thesis on what the 50 state strategy really means: you reduce the role of Beltway intermediaries, provide grassroots with the necessary tools, and let the campaigns define the themes.  Get the lobbyist/consultants out of the way and let the campaign grow locally.


by StewD on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:25:43 AM EST

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (none / 0)

I don't get it. Where are the Cliff Notes?


by FLS on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:42:01 AM EST

WE WON, DIDN'T WE??? (3.00 / 1)

Some thoughts:

1 - Targeting districts/drafting candidates is a lot like pro sports drafts - it is a bit of crap shoot.  See Heath Shuler - first round draft pick, crappy NFL QB, good candidate for Congress.  The point is you never know until you actually face the competition.  The top list looked like a good set of seats to target in late 1995, and I would be interested in an indepth look at why we lost all of them.

2 - The DCCC should NOT get involved in primaries.  Encouraging candidates to run is great but they shouldn't pick sides or spend $$ in primaries.  Let the strongest candidate win.  That, in mind, was the biggest mistake of the cycle.

3 - This test completely ignores Red to Blue which most of the winners were on including Gillibrand, Hall, Hodes, etc.

4 - Ground conditions change in an election just like momentum can shift in a football game from one half to another.  Dumping money into Duckworth was a mistake but for the most part the DCCC used late money very effectively.  Remember they dumped close to a $1 million dollars into Paul Hodes race late and considering NH doesn't have a lot of media markets I wonder if that also benefited Shea-Porter.  That would be an interesting case study.

5 - I don't think Tom Reynolds was high on any target lists until the Foley scandal hit.  Evidence please.  Reynolds might well have lost if Jack Davis had actually run a real campaign against him.  The guy was basically a rich, pissed off Repub who switched parties and did nothing but run some commercials and get press hits. Very disappointing.  

6 - There is plenty of credit to go around.  Dean deserves credit for starting to rebuild the state parties.  Rahm and Chuck deserve credit for doing a good job running the committees and for the most part spending their money well.  The netroots deserve credit for identifying and working for lots of strong candidates.

Some of this carping on Rahm and Chuck reminds of all Repubs saying that Bill Clinton had nothing to do with the economy of the 1990s.  Big wins like this don't happen by accident.  We need to do a post-mortum about what worked, what didn't work, how we can improve things for 2008.  However, this constant harping when we won a historic victory makes it sound like we lost.

WE WON.  Now we have to build upon it.


by John Mills on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 11:57:31 AM EST

Re: WE WON, DIDN'T WE??? (none / 0)

Wanted to add that Kos has a piece echoing that everyone deserves credit for this victory!


by John Mills on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 12:55:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes we did, but... (none / 0)

One improves by examining both wins and losses. There is plenty to be learned by examinging which strategy paid the largest dividend and which didn't.

An election like this yeilds hard data that can be interpreted, and should be. Although the post is a snarkfest, it has a solid premise based on the data and as such has merit.

Besides, 2008 is only a short while away. I want to increase our majority and take back the executive, not screw up again and regain the minority.


Witty comment goes here...
by michael in chicago on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:56:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes we did, but... (none / 0)

Agree on the post mortum and mentioned it in my comments.  We need to do it to learn for future races.  My problem with this is it is more a snarkfest more than anything data related unless you believe listing all the seats we didn't win is data analysis.  I don't.  

I am all for looking at what worked and what didn't in a constructive manner.  I am not at all interested in continuing the bashing of the DCCC or DSCC which contributed along with the DNC, the netroots and others to our big win on Tuesday.


by John Mills on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:09:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes we did, but... (none / 0)

I understand your point. But this one feels like a win for the grassroots on many levels. As Kos and others have pointed out, everyone shares the credit. But after being called the "nutroots" for so long and derrided despite our efforts, I think some of the snark is needed in that humble pie some people must be eating right now. Maybe with a side of crow as well.

Take it in stride. Let people have their "I told you so" moment. Read between the snark.


Witty comment goes here...
by michael in chicago on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:21:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WE WON, DIDN'T WE??? (none / 0)

Don't get involved in primaries -- but only because we have no Club for Growth-type organization that funds truly unelectable candidates.  If that were the case, the DCCC would need to get involved.


by Tom on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 02:56:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WE WON, DIDN'T WE??? (none / 0)

I don't believe the DCCC should be involved in primaries.  Period.  And I have no interest in a Dem version of the Club for Growth.  


by John Mills on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (3.00 / 1)

So, we should only contest the seats that aren't expensive and that we're assured of winning in case people turn their hindsight on?  Are you really saying we shouldn't have been fighting hard enough to make PA06 a tossup?  Are you saying that the DCCC shouldn't have been contesting Reynolds' seat?

Also, you may not want to list seats that are still undecided as failures.


by Lucas O'Connor on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 12:12:41 PM EST

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (none / 0)

If the DNC and Dean are getting proper credit, then you're right, the tone of the exam is too negative.

But taking a critical look at which races were well run doesn't seem to be an inherently bad idea.  


by StewD on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 01:20:35 PM EST

Extra Credit (3.00 / 1)

13. Which states did Rahm Emmanuel specifically ask to have disqualified from receiving DNC support and picked up ZERO seats:

A. Illinois
B. None of the above


Witty comment goes here...
by michael in chicago on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:50:53 PM EST

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (3.00 / 1)

"This diary is obviously written in a dishonest fashion.  It starts out by highlighting 8 races the DCCC lost..."

This all looks different in the context of the Carville rump action that was launched against Howard Dean.

The intensity of the attack on the poster surprised me. The original post was clearly meant to be provocative satire.  The title - which is what interesed me - was clearly meant to be ironic.  It might have been a little-bit too sarcastic given the likely audience.  But so what - it provoked comment and raised some questions.

One question raised was whether Howard Dean was going to continue to be the Michael Dukakis of internal Democratic politcs - by turning check after each disingenuous Beltway distortion of his record.

That question was answered yesterday when Dean fired back at Republican capitulator Carville.

The second question is whether everybody really is committed to an objective review of all the races.  And asking Jerome to "steer" us away from spontaneous debate isn't going to accomplish that goal.

The survival of Dean-affiliated progressives depends on aggressive critiques of all the players and races.  That's how excellent organizations improve.  And it is not healthy to simply declare that everyone is terrific. A Bush-Cheney "hurricane" gale blew at our backs our backs for one day.  That doesn't mean that everybody did a great job.  Some did better than others.  

Dean's 50 state strategy was plucked, singed and tortured by the Emmanuel gang throughout the year.  Those attacks affected the campaign.  Dean was forced to surrender resources to placate the critics. Less money went to roots and more money went to the Beltway.

There's now some evidence that the democratic/viral ideas and cost-effective grassroots-enabling tools of the DNC - and the 50 state plan -worked.  

So, ironically, Emmanuel allies now want to just make high-level declarations.  Skip the critical thinking.  Sorry, not good enough.  When you look at the costly Washington-based consultant-driven approach in those top 20 races - and set aside the peculiar scandal-impacted ones - there's are some real questions raised about what kinds of campaigns work.

Now that Carville's out of the closet, we know that everyone isn't playing nice.  So let's go through and find out what works.

We learned on Tuesday that fifteen seats can disappear in one gust of wind.  This is a fragile majority.  The Party needs to find out why the DCCC performance faltered in those races, and it needs to recognize and explain the successes in those unlikely red places.  


by StewD on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 09:05:11 AM EST

MI-09 (none / 0)

Where did the Democrat come within 5% of an entrenched Republican incumbent, in a district that statewide Democrats traditionally take 50% of the vote?

Where could a little party or even netroots support have made a huge difference?

Michigan's 9th.

It's about the district. The 9th is drawn 50-50, but Knollenberg continues to win on name ID. He won this year with only 51%, instead of his traditional 58%...These 50-50 districts need to be targeted. Great candidates lose all the time.


by JordanLFW on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 12:25:32 PM EST

Re: Final Exam: The 49 State Strategy (none / 0)

Well That was also almost Pa 15th too


by orin76 on Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 04:11:48 PM EST


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